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Hyperventilating Over Hyperflexion September 11, 2008

Posted by mikeschaffer in Behind the bit, competition, dressage, equipment, hyperflexion, roll kur, training.
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I recently made some comments about “hyperventilating over hyperflexion” in my   Training Indeed blog:

In reply, Stephanie posted this very considerate, thoughtful message:

Hello Mike,

I enjoyed your Indeed videos. I am confused about your statement referring to “hyperflexion”. Why do you keep Indeed’s head behind vertical?  I have watched many classical trainers and they all keep their horse’s heads in front of the vertical even when long and low.. In all the videos, you never let his walk or trot or canter out and let him have his head, wondering why you do this?  I watched your dressage performance to music and your horse is given full use of his neck and poll is highest point. why do you not train this way too?

Thank you for your time,

Stephani

By the time I wrote the reply, I realized it had become an article good enough to post on it’s own, so I’ve moved it to this forum which is intended to deal with more generic issues of training. That being said, here is my response to the individual questions and points Stephanie raises:

“I am confused about your statement referring to “hyperflexion”.”

I think the confusion comes from the fact the word “hyperflexion” isn’t accurately defined.  So, it has become very common to equate “hyperflexion” with “behind the vertical.”   However, they’re not the same thing.

Let’s begin with defining the elements of actual “hyperflexion”:

1. A condition created by a consistent, stiff,  backwards pull on the reins, which results in;

2.   the horse’s neck being compressed (shortened) which, among other things, pulls the poll down so it is not the highest point, and also;

3.  forces the poll angle to close (hyper-flex)  more than it would be if poll was at highest point and the horse was at vertical, and will also;

4.  pull the horse’s mouth open unless clamped shut by a horribly tight noseband, and also;.

5.  creates tension throughout the  body.

By this definition, a “hyper flexed” horse will always be behind the vertical, however,  a horse behind the vertical  is not necessarily hyperflexed.

So how do you tell the difference?  Well, first I’d hope that every serious student of dressage would develop their eye enough to see the difference between a horse being pulled rigidly backwards into a frame and a horse being ridden out to the contact.

Of course the easiest test is to see if the horse’s mouth is being pulled open – or would be if the noseband allowed.  For example, in moments of tension, Indeed’s mouth clearly opens, so we know his noseband is not forcing his mouth to stay closed.  From this we know that 99.9% of the time there is correct contact and his mouth is quiet – neither he or I is doing any pulling.  By that standard alone he is behind the vertical but not “hyperflexed.”

Next, when looking at a horse with a low poll that is behind the vertical,  look at the  poll angle.  If the plane of the face would be at or in front of the vertical if the poll was at the highest point and the poll angle remained the same, the horse is simply long, low, and flexed at the poll – he is not over flexed or “hyperflexed.”

“Why do you keep Indeed’s head behind vertical? “

The short answer is, he goes better this way.  I don’t really care that he’s BTV now, I’m concerned that the muscles at the base of his neck are released and not bracing, that he’s loose through his back, bending, and maintaining a “balance of movement” that he can work in comfortably. In short, I’m working him the way I think he needs to be worked  “now” at this moment of his training.  As he progresses I see all kinds of improvements in every aspect of his way of going.  This includes more time when is he is closer to the vertical.  However, his being at the vertical is a low priority – that will resolve itself as a natural result of other qualities continuing to improve.

“I have watched many classical trainers and they all keep their horse’s heads in front of the vertical even when long and low.”

Well you’re very fortunate to have watched many classical trainers since I fear there are very few around (although we suffer no shortage of pretenders).  Of the people I have worked with, their concerns have always been centered on issues like keeping the horse relaxed and happy in his work, making sure the horse isn’t being pushed past his limits or his ability to maintain  balance.  As I sit here I can’t recall a single time an issue was made of the horse being a little behind.  Perhaps an instruction to “get him more up”, or, “send him a little more forward.”,  would be given – it was no big deal.

Why these “classical” riders have such an obsession with the poll opening as the horse stretches down is a bit of a mystery to me.  Some years ago the Western Pleasure riders became so fixated on stretching their horses down with the nose out that they became known as “peanut rollers”. It became so ridiculous a rule was finally made to penalize them for being too long and low.  However, the point relevant to this discussion is that there is nothing inherently wonderful about going long and low with an open poll.  None of these western pleasure peanut rollers has ever, to my knowledge, gone on to do anything that could in any way be considered good quality dressage – classical or not.

“I watched your dressage performance to music and your horse is given full use of his neck and poll is highest point.  why do you not train this way too?”

First, thanks for noticing.  I train the way I do so that I end up with a horse that knows how to carry himself without bracing in the neck or balancing on the reins.  I’ve never had much luck with the approach of making the horse “look” like he’s supposed to and then having him “be” the way he’s supposed to.  My approach is to first help the horse to understand what we’re trying to do.  Then I let him work in whatever frame will help him build the strength, balance,  and coordination he will need to do the job.  This is the stage Deedles is in now.  Then, I let him alone to perform.  As you notice, the horse in the GP video put his  poll where he wanted it and used his neck the way he needed to. Since I had been his only rider for the 3 years before that tape was made, I must have done something right.

Add your comment!

Comments»

1. Marjorie Hicks - September 16, 2008

Hey Mike,

So what is the difference between a horse who has learned to avoid the bit by curling up and going ‘behind the bit’ and what you and Indeed were doing in the video?

I’ve been studiously using your techniques from “Right from the Start” all summer and my semi-ewe necked horse is developing beautiful middle and topline neck muscles. It feels like a miracle after 6 years of working with many different dressage trainers with no improvement in his topline. (I’m so happy thanks to you!!)

2. Mike - September 17, 2008

Hey to you Marjorie,

First of all I want you to know what a kick it is for me to know I have made a girl happy! And yes, it’s also very gratifying to hear from readers that they’re getting good results from just reading the book and applying it’s lessons.

In answer to your question, Indeed is often behind the vertical, however he almost never drops the contact and is behind the bit. Part of the process of training him is to teach him how to lengthen more throughout his neck while keeping his muscles relaxed and elastic. This is coming along nicely,as you can see in the

There is not nearly enough discussion about the process of creating proper contact, frame, elevation, and other qualities of a good dressage horse. As you can begin to see in the Training Indeed series, the process can take quite some time. Unfortunately, too many riders and instructors want to see instant results. So, rather than allow the horse to go as he may need to during training, they just concentrate on making him look like he should when he training is done. All too often the result is a stiff horse with his poll up, mouth clamped shut, and a rigid back who hits the stone wall at 1’st or 2’nd level and is never able to move on from there.

3. Bonnie Bailey - September 25, 2008

Hello Mike,

I’m so glad you have explained this. I, too, wondered why you trained BTV and when competing, the horse went correctly. I don’t compete, but love to train in dressage. I think a horse looks so beautiful in proper carriage. When I got your book, that was one of the first things I noticed and questioned in my mind. Now that I’ve seen your explanation, it makes perfect sense. I’ve watched all of your Training Indeed series and he is developing nicely, something I hope my own horse does. Thank you so much for your explanation.

Happy Training,
Bonnie

4. Danee Rudy - September 27, 2008

I was thinking more about this and it dawned on me that I do the same thing with human students- let me explain.
I have seen numerous female riders that have the much sought after ear/shoulder/hip/heel alingment, but at the cost of excessivly hollowing their lower back and tilting thier pelvis too far foward. Despite ‘proper alignment’ they are in a fork seat. So I get them to fix their pelvis- which puts them in a chair seat. Slowly we do exercises to stretch the front of the thighs and hip flexors, which allows the rider to once again have ear/shoulder/hip/heel alignment, but with a proper pelvic alignment. So getting them to ‘look’ right and ‘be’ right are definitly different things! While the horse can’t give us verbal feed back, my human students can, and the comments I got most were, “I feel like I can really move with my horse now,” “My back quit hurting”, and finally “My crotch quit hurting.”
I can easily see how BTV if the equie equivolent of a chair seat. Both are not pretty, and not ‘correct,’ but are the lesser evil of having ‘proper alignment’ and being stiff. Does that make any sense?

5. Debra Strong - October 6, 2008

Danee,

Your approach makes sense to me.

Whether it is training the horse or teaching the rider, I think the overall point is that making it LOOK right, even if there is pain, tension, lack of balance, or even possibly long-term damage, is WRONG. I don’t think it’s the lesser of two evils–that would mean that looking wrong is “bad,” but just not quite as bad as looking right but still being wrong.

What people need to realize is that the process does not look like the outcome! Your riding students are lucky that you understand that; my instructors never did.

Debra

6. Lydia Baxter - November 14, 2008

Hi Mike

Thank you for clearing up that confusion. You have answered the question I have asked so many. I got the impression that others were using a technique they didn’t understand, seeming they couldnt explain it.
I have heard the expression “working a horse deep” I assume this is the same thing as working a horse BTV without hyperflexion.

My horse has been transformed using the techniques in “Right from the Start”. The previous owner is completely astonished. At the start I found it very difficult to ride in a snaffle, so I kept my horse in a hartwell pelham with 2 reins taught him in that then moved to the snaffle. That is just the way I felt I had to do it with him.

I have also used these methods on another horse.With a snaffle from start to finish (well we’re never finished).

I get the impression from the horse, that these principles are logical to the horse’s understanding, so they comply willingly and without the need force.

Thank you

Lydia

mikeschaffer - December 6, 2008

HI Lydia,

Good to hear from you.
Yes, “working the horse deep” does often leave the horse BTV but it is not the backwards pulling seen in hyper-flexion.

7. stephani cessario - December 10, 2008

i have a question regarding Indeed’s training session dated 9/8/08. From 5:15 – 5:27 you were requesting something from Indeed. could you elaborate on that?

8. stephani cessario - December 10, 2008

could you explain Indeed’s broken neckline during training. I thought this indicated a tense, over-stretched back followed with flat hind end and hand-dominant riding. in the videos especially 9/8/08, I could definetely detect the stride and forwardness differences between when you were holding the reins and when you let him “have a break” and he walked on a few strides. I still don’t understand why you train long and low WITH a BTV emphasis when science proves that this is damaging to the ligament and muscular structure of the horse. Do you disagree with this theory although the proof is there…according to dr. gerd heuschmann….

9. mikeschaffer - December 14, 2008

Hi Stephani,

I don’t disagree with Dr. Heuschmann about hyper-flexion or absolute elevation. This is why there is nothing in the videos that should give you the impression I advocate “riding” the horse in the “hyperflexed frame he shows on pages 89-91 of his book (Tug of War: Classical vs. Modern Dressage).

I would like to have a chat with him about what he is calling the “broken neck” My issue is that on page 73 he shows a very nice young horse being ridden very well. However, the poll is not the highest point and the face is a tiny bit behind the vertical. The reason why I think he, and I, very much like this horse is he is being allowed to reach out to the bit as opposed to being pulled backwards by it. The young horse on page 94 is also being allowed to reach out to the frame and is obviously considered very good by both of us although his poll is not at the highest point either.

What he is calling a “broken” neck on pages 92 and 93 is not so much the outline as the fact that these two horses are being pulled backwards by the reins instead of being allowed to reach forwards to the bit. This is made very obvious by the angle of the curb shanks on the horse on page 93.

So, as the entire argument boils down to forwards riding vs. backwards pulling riding, there is no argument from me. I want to see the horses being ridden forward to the frame they need, and if the horse because of conformation, condition, or prior bad riding needs to spend some time long, low, and a little BTV, I could care less.

You have a good eye and you’re on the right track.

10. stephani cessario - December 14, 2008

thanks for explaining the video…I was referring to the application of your training stick. I recognized your request for a backward shifting of weight but was puzzled why you applied the stick to his hindquarters instead of his chest area for reinforcement of the request.

11. mayfieldk - January 7, 2009

Whilst I disagree about training in one frame only to show in another, and about working BTV and with a broken neckline, i might have to concede that sometimes, perhaps there are a few horses out there that might prefer that way of going (just like there are some runners who run quite well in ‘poor’ form). But I am no horse, so who knows. ;) However, I often see horses with a sunken chest who are trained in this manner and with over-developed muscles in the neck (I have not, however, seen your horse you describe, so I will make no judgment! I am a newbie to the blog here).

The only thing I wanted to add was your post about western pleasure and peanut rollers, and comparing them to long and low with an emphasis with the head in front of the vertical. It’s like comparing apples to oranges. ;) Being a western pleasure rider myself, when the peanut rollers back in the day were being trained as such, there was no lift in the back–the horses effectively ‘broke’ at the wither and the neck dropped. No engagement–the horse might as well of been grazing. If you watch modern western pleasure training today, it is how they train–they pull and seesaw on the mouths so much that the horses effectively learn to separate their neck from the rest of their body. Very, very different from a horse in the long and low position pushing through a swinging back and stretching into the contact!

mikeschaffer - January 8, 2009

Hi Kelly,

Thanks for coming by and posting your thoughts.

I think we agree. I suspectt it boils down to riding the horse forward, pulling him backwards, or just letting them shuffle along. As you point out, there’s really only one way it’s going to end up right.

I visited your blog – very nice. Hopefully people reading your post will go visit it.

Slowing the horse by putting him on a smaller circle instead of pulling on him is a major part of my approach as well. If you would like to see some of my videos try the “Training Indeed” link or my web site.

Mike

12. Wofford Penfold - January 9, 2009

What you say sounds right, but when I look at the video I see a horses head and neck used as leverage to force him to raise his back, rather than taking the time to train him push from the hindquarters to round–force vs. training and riding from front to back rather than back to front.

mikeschaffer - January 9, 2009

Hi Wofford,

Welcome to the blog.

I’m not sure how you can use the head and neck as leverage to force anything if there is no pulling. I also don’t think it’s possible to “force” a horse to raise his back at all. It’s definitely possible to force the poll up and to force the horse to go faster than it is comfortable with. However, my experience is that will make the horse more hollow and stiff.

13. Wofford Penfold - January 12, 2009

According to Anky, she’s not pulling either… If the horse is trained to go behind the bit you don’t have to constantly pull, the horse knows that raising it’s head will provide no release from the pressure. I can see in your video, that the horse occasionally attempts to raise his head, and his back immediately goes flat. That is because the roundness of the back is being supported by the tension of the nuchal ligament, rather than the thrust of the hind legs pushing forwards and up. If you watch videos of Salerino or Matinee, particularly in the piaffe, where collection is most noticable, you can see that these horses are not carrying their weight on their hindquarters, and are not truly and correctly collected–the consequence of training front to back rather than back to front.

mikeschaffer - January 13, 2009

Hi Wofford,

The first question you raise is, do you relax the horse’s back by sending him forward or do you have to relax his back in order to send him forward? In general I have found it is best to soften the horse from front to back before you try to ride them from back to front. With Indeed in particular, I found it absolutely necessary to first relax his back and have him stretching into the hand in order for him to be physically able to move freely forward from back to front.

You note Indeed hollows his back when he raises his head (I assume you’re referring to the occasional moments of imbalance and not the several minutes in the latter tapes when I have him more “up” in front). Well, that’s precisely the reason why I stretch the top line (nuchal ligament) before I try to get his hind end under him. I ask you to review the “Make it Yours” post on this page before getting into a chicken or egg type of debate over whether I would be better off sending him forward in order to loosen his back.

Another issue you raise has to do with Anky and I think it’s time I answered that generically in a separate post.

.

14. Wofford Penfold - January 13, 2009

Mike, I was impressed with your writing and agree with much that you say–and you say it very well. But I just went back and watched your video again and I think you are kidding yourself. You are clearly using hyperflexion, and a lot of it, to round your horses back. You are certainly much kinder about it than many I have seen. But still it is clear that the foundation of your training method rests on riding front to back rather than back to front. In our ‘instant gratification’ society, it’s easy to be charmed by a technique that produces nearly instant results. But the fact is, that as soon as your horse attempts to raise his head from the hyperflexed position, his back hollows, and to correct it, instead of pushing him forward into your hands, you pull him back into the hyperflexed position. Teaching a horse to round by pushing from behind takes much more time and effort, and the horse can’t be forced into it, unlike hyperflexion. But hyperflexion just does not produce the same results as classical methods and hopefully at some point even the FEI judges will figure out the difference.

mikeschaffer - January 13, 2009

Well Wofford,

I certainly respect your right to disagree if done in a pleasant enough way.

Yes, sending the horse more “forward” is the “classical” response and it works very well a lot of the time. It can also really screw a horse up if done wrong. Somewhere along the line Indeed, along with many horses like him, has been taught to stiffen and run through the aids instead of to soften and move into them when he loses balance.

Because of this history, I’ve taken the time to start him over. Part of the training consists of riding him easily enough that he can rediscover his body and balance. You seem to be saying that because I’m not now getting the forward going energy that I want to end up with I’m not riding him forward at all. We disagree. However, as long as you keep mentioning me in the same context as Anky I don’t find your objection objectionable at all.

15. Pam - January 13, 2009

This is a very interesting thread. I’m still very confused about the hyperflexion issue and look forward to further discussion on the matter.

I was recently watching a dvd by someone I think is a beautiful rider and it was mentioned there that forward means “on the aids” not running through them or in front of them as some like to say – so it seems you don’t have to have the energy level at first that some think is needed to have a “forward horse”. I believe you need a balanced horse first, like you mention Mike, the rest will follow. I’ve had so many instructors tell me more “forward” without really saying how to get that and have just realized they really mean is get him on the aids and listening to you so you can help him find his balance.

A famous French trainer that I admire says the horses hardly ever use their hind ends anyway (he focuses on jaw flexions and relaxation) – so I’m wondering how they can do so much pushing from behind that the Classical folks are working towards.

Regards,
Pam

16. mikeschaffer - January 14, 2009

HI Pam,

Nice of you to stop by, but tell us the names of the DVD and the French trainer!

17. Pam - January 14, 2009

Wasn’t sure if it was appropriate to mention names here – The French trainer is Philippe Karl (I recall you mentioning him somewhere before) – and the rider/trainer I mentioned is Anja Beran.

So, is it true horses hardly ever use their hind ends, like P. Karl mentions in his latest dvd with Hess? I really don’t know, just trying to sort it all out. Most folks here have probably been at it alot longer than I have.

Thanks,
Pam

mikeschaffer - January 15, 2009

Yes – if someone feels another trainer or rider has something positive to add to the discussion it is welcome and don’t hesitate to mention their name. I don’t want negative comments about other people. A question or negative observation about a particular technique or approach is OK.

PK is absolutely right that horses do not usually engage and lift with their hind ends in the wild. It is only on rare occasion that they do. However, since wild horses never have to deal with the weight of a rider this isn’t a big deal.

Thank you for bringing Anja Beran to our attention. Wonderful horses! Here is a link to a very nice video of her i found on Youtube.

18. Debra - January 28, 2009

Wofford says above, ” In our ‘instant gratification’ society, it’s easy to be charmed by a technique that produces nearly instant results.”

Please allow me to say…:

Of all the trainers I have met or worked with, Mike is the least focused on “instant results.” He restarted my mare who was stiff and tense and had literally been trained that pulling on the bit and bracing against the rider was her job, and she found it very difficult to give this up. He worked patiently for over a year with her to help her learn to relax mentally and physically, go in a steady rhythm, and become more balanced. He is now working with both of us helping me to eliminate my own tension, stop pulling on my horse, and use lighter and lighter aids.

He has never claimed that his methods are fast and insists on getting these basics right before trying to move on the dressage figures, movements, or certainly competitions. If you read his post “It Takes What It Takes,” on the Training Indeed blog you will see that he has spent a lot of time trying to rebuild these basics with Indeed as well. In my experience, riders and owners looking for quick fixes or instant results don’t stick with him very long.

Best,

D

19. Stephanie D - February 4, 2009

I was watching RFDTV the other day and Tommy Garland was demonstrating how to get the show horse to collect at the canter. He starts off describing the “training equipment”, a german martingale that is so tight it is literally choking the horse. Off in canter he goes and says to take back on the reins and set the hand (which is now clean back behind the pomel) and use the legs to drive the horse under. I’m sitting there thinking he’s got this horse so hyperflexed….besides the fact that the horse didn’t collect, he just took shorter steps and got more hollow…then I started thinking about a recent email I got offering a DVD on the biomechanics and why/how hyperflexion is really uncomfortable for the horse and the ill effects it causes. Then I started getting kind of angry that this top arabian trainer ( I have and show Arabs) is promoting this kind of “training” (how about torture!) and getting recognition for it. In my years of studying and learning about dressage I am finally understanding what it takes to ask/teach the horse to use the hindend. I really like the french influence of lightness for my little very sensitive Arabian. I find when I do much less she gives me much more. And yes, the slowness of going back to the basics can be boring, but it sure has paid off–for me anyway. So-how do we change or influence other disciplines to do it right?
Steph

mikeschaffer - February 4, 2009

So-how do we change or influence other disciplines to do it right?

We pass the two finger rule so when they pull on their horse the horse opens his mouth and tells the world he’s riding backwards.

20. Pam - February 4, 2009

Hey Steph, I am partial to the French school of lightness as well and I am always feeling outnumbered. I see alot of anti-collection out there too coming from top trainers. It seems lightness is not an objective these days. I have a very sensitive TB who has taught me the value of lightness and “less is more”. I think alot of dressage horses have what are called “dead mouths” so that heaviness doesn’t bother them, but it is also not very appealing. I sometimes wonder if it is a breed issue – but I’m not 100% sure of that.
Regards,
Pam

21. Mac - August 22, 2009

So glad I found this entry – an oldie but apparently a goodie!

Hi Mike! I’ve gotten hold of your book, and just love it. I was stunned when the “lifting the bit to relax the jaw” exercise actually worked – I was certain that no way would my stubborn little mare decipher that an upward pressure would mean “come down, drop, relax” – I think she read your book first!

Anyway, to cut a long story short, my girl and I are, first the first time in either of our lives, taking up regular dressage lessons. I had our third lesson filmed and when I watched it, I was a bit concerned that my girl was always BTV – I know when I rode her she felt great, like she was holding the bit and riding out on it, not sucking back. I trust my instructor completely, but when people would ask “oh your horse is BTV, why do you ride like that” – I had no answer! I didn’t know WHY, I just knew my horse was happy and forwards and soft.

I think you just explained everything I needed in this entry. Thank you! The video is on youtube, much to my slight horror (nobody likes displaying the ugly learning process), if you feel curious.

Now, when are you coming over to Australia for a clinic, hey? Nobody loves us down here!

Cheers
Mac

22. 12 Seconds… « The Dressage Process - January 4, 2010

[…] roll kur, training. Tags: behind the vertical, dressage, hyperflexion, training trackback Another comment from Stephani and another post to answer. i have a question regarding Indeed’s training session […]

23. Hyperflexion/Rollkur/Blue tongue, Insanity! « The Dressage Process - February 12, 2010

[…] Hyperventilating Over Hyperflexion […]


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